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I have to disagree.
If my LDS prices an item so it costs me the same from them as it would if I purchased online and had to pay for shipping then they have earned my business. I`ll pay the local sales tax. That is what I consider reasonable. I want my LDS to compete for my equipment business. Why should I give them special consideration it`s business!
They will make a profit on small items that it won`t pay to ship or items that people need on short notice. They also profit on fills, training and travel bookings.
I`m tired of hearing the BS about supporting your LDS. If there is enough interest in diving in my area and the LDS does a good job of supporting their customers they will survive. I live in a desert and there is close to a dozen LDS` within a hour ride from my home. Some compete and get my business others don`t try so I won`t buy!
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You disagree because you are uneducated. Local dive shops can not compete with online sellers dollar for dollar. Not because they don`t want to, but because the playing field is not level. Local dive shops buy goods direct from manufacturers with full factory warranties that they pass on to you. manufacturers do two things that hurt local dive shops and their ability to compete. 1. They charge the LDS way too much money for their goods and 2. After they charge too much money, they tell the LDS what they have to advertise the goods for if they want to keep their dealership. I call it price fixing and as a LDS owner I`m in the process of fighting it to help save the diving industry. When an online dealer such as Leisurepro buys grey market goods from a third party seller at below wholesale (what a LDS pays) and sells it to you at what the LDS owner has to pay for it... the LDS owner can not compete. Don`t be mad at your LDS owner for their pricing - be mad at the manufacturers who are dictating to LDS owners what they must list items for. Here is an example. I must pay Cressi sub $178 for a BCD... that is my cost as an authorized dealer. They tell me I can not advertise it for less than $399 or else I lose my dealership. Meanwhile, Leisurepro has obtained these BCD`s from a backroom deal somwehere and is selling them for $199. For me to compete I have to be able to 1. Bring customers to my store by advertising a competitive price (which I can`t do without violating manufacturers rules,) and 2. Sell the item at enough profit margin to pay rent, electric bills, employees and put food on the table. If I match leisurepro`s price... I make $21 on the item. In this scenario, a shop owner like myself says I need 20% above Leisurepro price or $238 to keep my store open, give you a full manufacturers warranty, be there to fill your air, offer travel opportunities and the benefit of giving you a place to get those items you don`t want to pay shipping on. Keep in mind, I was a customer for 12 years before I opened a shop... so I don`t take this lightly and neither should you. I agree that many LDS`s are gouging customers in an insane way. Charging far more than they should... but many of them are uneducated LDS owners who blindly believe in the price fixing scheme set up by the Scuba Mafia. They are told by fixing prices it levels the playing field... which it does do. The problem is is levels the playing field among LDS owners and does nothing to address grey market internet sales. If manufacturers continue to fix pricing and refuse to let LDS owners compete... all LDS`s will eventually be gone the way of the dinosaur. The internet isn`t going away anytime soon.
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Blah bla Blah.... Bla blah, bla blah!
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Seems strange that I have been able to purchase my BCD,regs, tanks and computer locally and have my LDS match LP prices. Seems some of the shops locally can compete and even advertise the fact. Others sing the old songs many of us have heard before and become tired of hearing. If you can`t make your business model work change it but stop asking your customers to turn a blind eye to your charging too much for equipment. As for who`s going to fill my bottles that will be one of the smarter LDS. If your shop isn`t on the net who`s fault is that? You don`t have programs to attract new divers. Shame on you! Training is a great profit and sales generator. Stop crying and get off your lazy A$$ and earn a living and stop begging for it!!!
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I`m glad to see I was able to stoke a fire here. At least we all have something to discuss and ponder. I`m sure your post wasn`t directed at us... because we often not only match Leisurepro - we routinely beat it... and as for training programs, we`re leading the pack. The original post was to primarily enlighten all the people out there who routinely pay insane dive shop prices - some as much as double the online prices. There is a shop within one hour of ours that routninely charges $110 for a mask we sell for $54.95 - matching the Leisurepro price. Yes, on occassion due to manufacturer restrictions it is impossible for us to match Leisurepro pricing - but that is generally on small items such as mask straps and other accessories. Of course as the first responder noted... our higher prices are still cheaper than buying it at Leisurepro and paying the shipping. This post was directed at new divers - and I stand behind the statement that 20% above Leisurepro is more than fair... because often (depending upon what you`re buying,) the 20% is about what the shipping costs to get the item to you, in addition to getting the manufacturers warranty. We have an online presence as well... and if your LDS has an online presence - you know that their prices don`t come cose to Leisurepros either. You can call and get a better price... you can walk in and get a better price... but you can not click and get a better price. The advertised price is controlled by the manufacturer... and if it`s not - you have no warranty on your goods... other than what the Dive Shop selling it to you provides. So educate yourselves on fact - not fiction... then decide wher to spend your money. That`s what the post is about... and again, we thank you for your support. Happy Diving.
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To the LDS owner: I agree about the manufacturer screwing the dealers. LP is not scavenging for the most part, they are getting product direct from manufacturer under the table, using shell companies the manufacturer knows about. Funny how LP often has a new product in stock and shipping before the LDS gets their first shipment.
But all this talk about LP is a red herring. LP is the old generation online retailer. The new generation is led by Scubatoys, Divers Supply, Dive Sports, Scuba.com, and others who are AUTHORIZED DEALERS for their products. They are providing the customers what they want. Low prices (abiding by MAP), price matching, wide product selection, low service costs, generous return policies, and expert advice. These online retailers are also full service LDS that have large stores and carry a large inventory.
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Exactly - Now Add Off the Wall Scuba to the list along with Scubatoys, Scuba.com etc... because Off the Wall Scuba is the Newest and Premier online retailer. Low prices, membership, shop online right on their showroom floor etc... Happy Diving!
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I don`t think it`s strange that I can purchase from my LDS for the same price as online retailers charge. After all there are always good business people that understand that it is better to move merchandise out the door making 1 cent than to let a customer that walked in your door walk out empty handed. The empty handed customer may never return but the customer that got a good deal will and will spend more money in the future. Next time they may need something serviced.(a great place to make a fair profit) Maybe they are ready to get some advanced training. Who will they remember the place where the equipment is expensive or the friendly LDS where they got a great deal on their gear.
As for manufacturers controlling pricing that isn`t the case they control the price you can advertise but not the price you can charge. They can not stop you from advertizing that you will not be undersold.
Bottom line compete or die! If the local customer base will support it 1 LDS will always survive. In most cases a few will and those will be the better shops anyway. I`d rather have 1 good shop a reasonable trip from me that 5 shops that do their jobs half as well.
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My bottom line is, I`m cheap. Can you blame me? The economy is killing everyone. I save money wherever I can, and that includes buying dive gear. Sorry the LDS is taking a big hit with on-line suppliers and their purchasers, but the LDS Owners NEED to protest the Manufacturers. I work closely with a LDS here. They aren`t exactly going out of their way to drum up business, but they`re bitching like everyone else. I know a BUNCH of ways they could solicit business, but they`re just siting around bitching and moaning. Get a life.
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Maybe that`s what it takes to be a successful local dive shop today.
The closest 1 to me advertizes on their website that they will beat any price by 5% and has sales a couple times each year.
The next closest will try to match prices and also, has monthly specials and sales each year.
Going further to the next shop that I deal with, They had coupons for 15% off equipment issued to divers who entered a local dive site park. They matched an online price and then took off an addition 15% to make the sale and honor the coupon.
The furthest shop local shop I deal with sends out monthly emails with specials and discount coupons. They try to match prices. They have an online sales presence and run holiday sales. They actively promote diving both locally with socials, special events and abroad with regular trips.
All these shops have a website to promote themselves and communicate with their customers.
There are other LDS within a useful range some I haven`t tried yet and others that sing the sour tune. Why would I deal with a subpar LDS when I can choose from others that do everything they can to compete and do? When they do they earn my respect and loyalty when they don`t they know it isn`t my fault but they fact that they haven`t yet gotton to sales levels that get them best pricing from manufacturers.
One thing I`ve notice locally is that some LDS that don`t have any formal connection have started to work together to create a better dive community. Maybe a good next step would be some formal associations for purchasing so they could show better sale numbers to the manufacturers and demand top tier pricing.
The shops that sit by and whine deserve what they get. I`m sorry for those divers that don`t have better shops to choose from. The fact is if a LDS wants to stand out and earn your dollar they can. Too many old shops remember easy money when they had no competition. Now they must work for a living like so many of the rest of us.
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Im on the fence here I believe the lds should make a living and am ok to pay 20/25% more plus tax but any higher and there trying to take advantage I believe If I had a very good relation though and the shop treated my nice then that would be a little different trust when I saw if the local shop doesnt want to make a little money someone else will.........business is business
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You should buy from your local LDS when the price is right and the service is great. Otherwise, shop around. Bad shops don’t belong in business just because they have air fills. There are alternatives (like getting air fills from your local dive site).
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The debate goes on. I hate to be the one to break it to the LDS and the distributors. Fact is the manufacturers are helping some of the larger internet companies to buy up the new equitment from the failed LDS. It is a fact that johnson outdoors does it. If the thay do it I am sure the other companies do it as well. I am looking for articale about it and will gladly post it if deamed ok by #1. Economics as well as the way people shop has changed and it will never be the same, the small chains and the 1 store shops can not do bussiness the way it was done 50 years ago. Service is not king any longer. I had had several economics courses, ok, I admit it it was 25 years ago, and everything I learned had taught me one thing. That is, to through out the old books, what made sense years ago, no longer works. Those of you who wish to pay more then 10% to get instant gratification, I say do it, I will do it maybe even 15%, but more then that, you can join the ranks of people who bought 500,000 dollar homes that where worth 350,000, and now 200,000.00 and they owe 495,000.00. I know, I will do my best to help my local dive shop in my primary place of residence, but I would rather just right them a check or offer to help out around shop for no pay once in a while. Times are going to get far worse before things get better, so this debate is going to go on for many years. In the past 5 years I have bought 4 BCD’s on line 3 from LP, 1 from DS, and 3 used from personal buddies. I do plan to buy within the next few months a nighthawk bcd and will buy unit from my LDS but the air link from LP to save 50 dollars. As far as regs go I am set for years to come, Tanks I have 12, 8 from a LDS, not my current one but they cheated on vip’s buy swaping stickers instead really doing vips, the rest from walk in purchases at other shops at another location in Key Largo, Computers are aries or oceanic, maybe cressi and they will only be from who ever is offering best price. I can sum this up, with get with the times or get out, target and walmart are hiring.
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My LDS Says,,, theyve Dropped their prices because of the internet to be able to compete, if thats so ture which ive seen some of the prices and checked out online, since I go to the LDS to buy what I need and not to walk around the whole shop, and as the cumsumer,,,, We dont know the wholsale prices and the mark up%, how many feel comfortable to ask,,,"whadda you pay for it"? Ive worked in the motorcycle industry and ive ssen anywhere from 10% - 300% mark up on accesories & parts... I knew that, The customer Didnt! Theres onething youll never stop in the world may it be wholesale, retail,online, that is,,Competion! I’d rather try & buy & have now,Than look, Order, pay x-tra shipping costs, wait,to find oops,, wrong 1 was shipped, send it back n wait Again!
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1 Question??? if youre sooooooooo proud of your Shop,,,,,, why post this anonymous??? If youre so eager to say that youre in the competitive market why hide behind the mask!! Any proud business owner would and Should be proud to say this is who I am come and check it out!!
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I have a great LDS here in Northern California. My LDS will compete with any on-line price if I can show proof that the item is less than their listed price.
Usually its’ nothing more than just a copy of the item and the on-line price. Fairly simple for me.
I’ve done and will continue to do good business with them even when they do not carry certain scuba equipments and products.
I have to say one thing, I do appreciate the ancillary dive services I receive from my LDS. They contact vendors for upgrades when new products come out. (Recently the Suunto came out with the new Cobra III, they called and got me an upgrade for $475.00 just turn in the old one)
If something doesn’t fit right they take care of it for me, even if it’s special order items. My LDS service all my gear and equipment, of course for a price.
Furthermore they really help me to tailor everything to MY specifications.
Next year I’m going tech, which means more gear and specialized equipment. I wouldn’t think of buying from anyone else.
When it comes to dive travel they will make the calls, and do the leg work if I need it done. I mainly do that myself, but, if I needed it done they would do it for me.
I try to make it easy I figure out where I want to go, then just call them and tell them to book it for me. It’s easy and conveniently taken care of for me. All I do is pay, pack and fly.
But I’ve been on the other end of this situation where the LDS is such a poorly run operation that I would buy from an on-line operator rather then give my money to hacks and crooks.
I’ve also traveled distance when a LDS was close by because I refused to give my money to them under any circumstance.
I’m just really glad that I have a EXCELLENT LDS that I can give my money to and they truly appreciate me as a customer.
Good business is just good business if you’ve got it even in the hardest times you will prevail.
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I buy from what ever sorce gives me the best price and service.. Need it be on-line or local dive shop.. I don’t owe of the the local dive stores anything.. Its called business.. Dive Shops in my experience don’t deliver what they promise.. Also bad marketing skills and service.. All retail stores need to sell thier stuff on the internet to survive.. Need it be store stock, classes or trips.. Thank goodness for the large internet houses to help keep the local dive shop prices down., May the best man win to get my money.. Mike
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Here’s a different take on the Internet/LDS debate. My LDS is one of the Top 5 internet retailers. The "World HQ" is located in this area. They have a HUGE stock, great facilites and good online prices. However, they could not care less about thier local customers. They make so much from their online customers, they do nothing for the local people. They charge us more than the advertised online price of their own merchnadise unless we mention they need to price match themsleves. If we drop off equipment for service, it gets put beihind any equipment that gets sent in from the an internet customer. My last set was in the shop 6 weeks when I finally took them back and had another person service it. Although they have a pool in the building for students, they have no equipment days, no try and buy, nothing like that. There are no meet and greets for divers, they don’t even do anything with the local area for charity or fund raising or even trash clean up.. They do absolutely nothing for the local community except take up space on a corner lot and pay their taxes. There is HUGE potential in that business for the local divers and the community but the owners don’t consider us worth their effort. I even watched the owner tell a guy to leave one day and that he "didn’t need his business." It’s very sad because of the potential. I will say the "Staff" is awesome!! They are always willing to help, but their hands are tied because of the Management’s mentality towards the local customer.
So needless to say, places like Leisure Pro and the LDS’s that I go to on my dive trips are the folks I use now. Price means a lot to people, but respecting customers will get you further.
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The only two things that bother me as an operator of a LDS is that divers come in and will get all there education, sizing and comparison including a demo dive at times from the dive shop. Then after a couple hours of working with a customer to find the perfect piece of gear they go online and sometimes save what usually amounts to a few bucks. Usually the customer will not even give me a chance to match the price or come close.
I don’t think the LDS will ever go away like the small mom and pop shops that used to truly bring customer service and knowledge in electronics and cameras. But I do think there are areas that will go without a LDS and not have training available within reasonable diving distance. You’re not going to get much training from Leasure Pro in the middle of the country. All I ask is for people to show some respect to the stores that do provide Training, Trips, Diving Experiences,Gear Service and help Sizing and Reccommend what you buy. When you show up at your LDS, with your new set of gear purchased online that isn’t assembled, please don’t be shocked when you are charged a reasonable fee to put it all together.
I know there are some online retailers that openly enjoy the LDS doing all the hard work so they don’t have to deal with the customer which they feel is a pain when not just an online invoice. That’s not to say all online retailers are created the same. There are some very reputable online retailers that support the dive community. Many of the shops including mine are now introducing shopping carts to allow the ease of shopping from home or work when you want to. However we will comply with the dealers rules.
I have noticed that Leisure Pro is now advertizing on divebuddy.com. Good for them, however I do feel they are probably the single worst offender of grey market scuba providers in the world. I believe in a fair market but they continue to abuse any method available to legally or possibly otherwise circumvent dealers agreements. Check with the Aqualung webiste and you will see on a regular basis they send out releases trying to inform the public that the are not authorized retailers of their products. Hmmm I sure would think twice before buying from a nondealer that is publicly denied by the manufacturers.
I will give Scubatoys props for being just down the road and have always worked well with us and are a contributer to the local dive community. Maybe if some of the others online retailers operated similarly there would be less ill will toward online retailers.
Hopefully most of you have a LDS that functions as the heart of your diving and you support them because they have earned it. I think that is all we as reatilers can ask. We certainly don’t run dive shops only for the profit. The real payoff is a healthy local dive scene that fosters new divers and keeps longtime divers active. All of us; divers, instructors and retailers are key to divings continued success in our area. Think about that before your next purchase and spend your money accordingly.
Cheers,
Rich
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